TheDawgByte

I would have thought that would go without saying.  Nothing in our ethics would allow that type of discrimination.  If people are polite and tasteful in their demeanor and conversation how would that even come up? 

I question what good it would do the amend the code.  There are too many agents out there who don't pay any attention to it anyway and will do what they will do no matter what kind of code they are supposed to follow.  Add to that the fact that the banks don't care at all what the code or laws or statues or rules say, they do what they want anyway.  Those of us who try to live by the rules and the code are left standing in the wings while the unethical and greedy rule to roost!  Too sad but true right now.  I am finding that this industry is taking a turn I really don't much care for and while I try to adapt and accept, it is hard because I try and play by the rules while others are laughing at them.

More rules/regulations/guidelines seldom have the effect one may want them to have. I for one believe less is more. Those who will discriminate or otherwise violate common decency will do so with or without laws, rules, regulations or guidelines. 

While changing this may allow one group to feel better about themselves, it will just as likely make another group feel less special. I wholeheartedly disagree with you....it is a leap that is not warranted and certainly not advisable.  

Let's do away with the code and follow only one rule: 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

What a code and so simple in fact let's have no laws but that one and then the judges would have no problem interpreting that now would they.

I guess I was trying to say what Charles said, the code is based on the Golden Rule.  We cannot legislate that!

Hi Scott ~ You make an excellent point.  I'm surprised it's not included.  And since there is a list LGBT should certainly be included.  And while we're at it - shouldn't "sex" be "gender"?

Liz

Hey, how come age is not in there?

I think it should be there as well...

And it makes me sad at all the posts about the Realtors who blatantly ignore the code of ethics...giving up isnt the answer.  If you child was misbehaving/showing delinquent behavior would you just say...o well, they'll do what they want anyway.

Heck no

We need to unite under the NAR and crack down on ethics violations - those who violate it shouldn't be allowed to practice.

I understand that there will always be those people who stand by and watch a mugging on the street because they don't want to get involved...but thankfully there are more of us who want to...get involved

Just sayin...

First let me say that I hope you all had a wonderful 4th of July.  Second, thank you all for all your comments on my blog.

Sandra W.  - It would be so fantastic if "it did go without saying" but it doesn't.  As I type this, documented cases of agents and brokers discriminating against the LGBT community are being collected to present to the powers-that-be at NAR.

Sandra P. - You're comment struck me very hard...for in it I could hear a deep sadness about the state of our profession.  The positive side to the real estate down turn has been the rapid exodus of "the unethical and the greedy".  Those that got into real estate during the last boom seem to be moving on to greener pastures.  Stick to your ethical guns, Sandra...you are not alone.

Guy - I whole-heartedlydisagree with you, too.  Using your well articulated comment, do we throw out the Voting Rights Act because it makes the KKK feel less special and or the right of women to vote because it made the white male dominated political power structure in this country feel less special?  I think not.  Less is always more if you just happen to be a member of society that has always had the blessings of the more.  If you happen to be a member of society that has always had the less...the more looks damn good.

Charles - I do like your idea and I wish it would work.  Unfortunately, many people seem to need the force of law to make them do the right thing.  Look what happened when the banking industry and Wall Street had less regulation...greed, corruption, and a total disregard for the people they destroyed.

Sandra W -  Two comments?  I'm honored!  I agree that you can't legislate anyone in to doing right or wrong; however, you can put into legislation the appropriate penalties and consequences for ignoring the law. 

Liz - Excellent point?  I'm blushing. I was surprised to learn that "sexual orientation" wasn't already included in the NAR Code of Ethics, also.  I'm glad I took the At Home With Diversity educational course.  I'm with you on the term gender instead of sex.  There is a story about a senior citizen who went into the hospital for a surgery and as part of his pre-op paper work he had to fill out yet another questionnaire that asked for his name, age, marital status, etc.  He got to the boxes about his sex and and instead of checking either the male box or the female box, he carefully penned these words above the two boxes..."at my age I'll take sex as often as I can". 

Kenneth - A very good point!

Shaun - Bravo!

Over the last 40-50 years, we've had an increasing number of people of all makes and models who see themselves as victims and therefore want special attention. This is encouraged by our government at all levels. Seeing one's self as a victim is seldom healthy or productive and even more seldom remedies the perceived wrongs.

My great grandfather was a Spanish immigrant. He didn't need or want a special status or special "immigrant" opportunities...he only want an opportunity. He found it here in America even though many who are born in the land of opportunity can only find excuses for not finding those very same opportunities. Failing to do so means one must provide excuses...excuses that simply don't hold water in reality. We all have the opportunity.

My father worked two jobs all his life to support his family and I never heard him say he was a victim, nor did he want special treatment as the son of an immigrant. I never thought of myself as one either. I also never thought I needed some ill conceived special status in order for me to succeed. I too suffered some discrimination in my years, but NEVER did I see it as an obstacle, only as a challenge...one that I overcame and feel better for it....and NO, I didn't need some law giving me special status to do so. 

The voting rights act you mentioned could consume our debate for the next six months, but to compare the plight of LGBT's with that of blacks is a stretch by any definition. Since when have the LGBT not had the right to vote, not been allowed to enter a restaurant, the inability to enter a theater. But this is what a victim mentality does to those seeking to be the next special group. It perpetuates the myth and distorts the truth....not truth as the "special" group sees it, but the truth as it really is.

What about white males who are shorter than 5'5"? Do you not think life / jobs are more difficult for them? Should they not receive special status? What about women who don't hold the beauty of a runway model? What about obese people? Surely you would admit they suffer in the work environment too. Special status due them too? No, they must get on with the business of living.

No Scott, the real issue here is that of a victimization mentality. It is a crutch that is leaned upon heavily these days so people don"t have to look in the mirror and address the true underlying issues, whatever they may be.

Guy -  There is an old political trick that has been used forever in this nation.  The political trick is simple:  when a debate gets going obfuscate your real agenda by trying to get two minority groups going at each other.  You just tried that and I won't bite.  Trying the old African-American against LGBT blah-blah only serves to weaken your argument and strengthen my call for amending the NAR Code of Ethics to include sexual orientation.

The other political trick is to use a "hot button" issue and then veer left or right of it, refusing any challenges to it, and running from it when the evidence is overwhelming that the "hot button" issue is in no way related to the issue at hand.

Congrats....but perhaps this is why the issue is not seriously addressed by NAR...it's not being seriously addressed by those who are affected.

Guy- Actually, it is being seriously addressed by NAR.  As I type these words in response to your last blog, well documented examples of agent and broker discrimination against the LGBT community is being compiled by various human rights organizations.

I read carefully all your comments and I appreciate your points.  I just disagree with them.  I, too, had family migrate from Ireland and Germany to this nation.  That is wonderful for you and me.  I just don't see the relationship to my blog. 

This isn't a right or left issue.  It is an issue of simple human rights and protections.  I'm not going to go head to head and toe to toe with you about our fathers or special treatment. I've never considered Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of Happiness special treatment. They are Rights in this nation.  

As for "special group" thinking:  we are all special groups.  NAR is a special group.  Unions are a special group.  Republicans are a special group.  We are a nation of special groups.  Whenever the interests of one group confronts the interests of another group...special groups are created.  I am under 5'5", Guy, so I'm in another special group according to your thinking.

You gave me biography as evidence and as much as I respect your biography...it isn't evidence.  You and I and most have suffered some form of discrimination.  The fact that we all have suffered some form of discrimination is not evidence for not amending the NAR Code of Ethics...it is evidence for the need to correct wrongs.

Let me just add, there are many states in this nation where the rights of LGBT  people to housing, jobs, and the simple joy of walking hand in hand is not protected.  There are places all over this country where even being considered LGBT will get your head cracked open with a baseball bat.  So when you walk hand in hand down the street in your town with your wife or girlfriend just count your lucky stars that a car full of bigots don't jump out yelling "faggot" and, at best just beat you up, or at worst, crack your skull open with a brick or bat. 

You, Sir, have absolutely no concept of what it costs emotionally, physically, or financially to be a member of the LGBT community in this home of the brave and the land of the free.  So don't talk to me about "victim mentality" until you've experienced what members of the LGBT community experience on a daily basis in this nation.  If you want proof, I will be happy to email you a list of Non-LGBT websites that have documented the abuse and discrimination of the LGBT community.

After 40+ years working in several civil rights movements, I am not about to turn tale and run from you or anyone else.  My running stopped a very long time ago.

my responses are in bold.

Guy- Actually, it is being seriously addressed by NAR.  As I type these words in response to your last blog, well documented examples of agent and broker discrimination against the LGBT community is being compiled by various human rights organizations.

I can find just as many individuals who will testify that they were discriminated again because of they were short, tall, fat, skinny, ugly, gorgeous, LBGT, straight...you name it. I am of the opinion we can make laws / rules till the cows come home and it won't change a thing except make one more group feel special and give us a ton of silly lawsuits that everyone (not just the special group) pays for.

I don't doubt that NAR will eventually pursue this issue as they do all political issues....gotta keep the membership happy and throw the political football instead of addressing things from a practical, logical perspective. Quite frankly, and forgive me for saying this about a special group you admire, but I've generally found NAR to be neutered and less than bold in their approach to political issues.

I read carefully all your comments and I appreciate your points.  I just disagree with them.  I, too, had family migrate from Ireland and Germany to this nation.  That is wonderful for you and me.  I just don't see the relationship to my blog. 

As I don't see the "race card" you played having any relationship to your statements. You did not and apparently will not admit that LGBT have NEVER been denied access to the voting booth, to a restaurant, to a movie theater. If you're gonna play the race card, don't run from the issue when someone challenges it. You played this card because it was designed to incite emotion, but it was not based on facts. Nice try, but I'm punting it back to you.

This isn't a right or left issue.  It is an issue of simple human rights and protections.  I'm not going to go head to head and toe to toe with you about our fathers or special treatment. I've never considered Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of Happiness special treatment. They are Rights in this nation.  

LLATPH are rights. When someone is assaulted (regardless of the reason), it is a crime. To say because someone is LGBT, the assault is somehow more aggregious is bogus. Violating someones human rights is a violation regardless of skin color, religious preference, etc. I am still waiting to hear what eating establishment you were booted out of because of your sexual preference. What grocery store were you not allowed in because of your sexual preference?

Since you're clearly alive, I'm assuming your pursuit of life is has not been taken from you. Since you are just as clearly free to espouse your beliefs on this and other forums, I assume you haven't been jailed because of your beliefs. And since you are a functional, articulate adult, I'm assuming you haven't lived your entire life being unhappy.

We as citizens are given these rights but it is ludicrous to believe you will never have a bad day, you will never be treated unfairly, never be accosted, never feel unwelcome. I know I have had these happen many times throughout my life, but quite frankly, I've never been happier in my life. But then again, my happiness comes from within, not from the external world or anything someone does or does not do to or for me.  

As for "special group" thinking:  we are all special groups.  NAR is a special group.  Unions are a special group.  Republicans are a special group.  We are a nation of special groups.  Whenever the interests of one group confronts the interests of another group...special groups are created.  I am under 5'5", Guy, so I'm in another special group according to your thinking.

Special groups are what is destroying our country. One special group's interests should receive more attention than your special group's interests? It is precisely that thinking that is bothersome. We are a nation of "special groups" precisely because we no longer wish to bear responsibility for our actions or for admitting that Utopia doesn't exist.  

You gave me biography as evidence and as much as I respect your biography...it isn't evidence.  You and I and most have suffered some form of discrimination.  The fact that we all have suffered some form of discrimination is not evidence for not amending the NAR Code of Ethics...it is evidence for the need to correct wrongs.

For God's sake, you will go to your grave having been wronged. This is the very mentality I speak of. You want a perfect world and it doesn't exist now, never has and never will. This is a world of pain, joy, suffering, elation...you name it. I don't need someone to pass a law or make a new regulation so I can feel good about myself. Is it wrong that it rains some days and the sun shines others. What if I want only rainy days...should someone be held responsible for me being wronged? Geez man, this is the heart of the problem...we don't want to ever have anything bad happen to us. It's called LIFE!

Let me just add, there are many states in this nation where the rights of LGBT  people to housing, jobs, and the simple joy of walking hand in hand is not protected.  There are places all over this country where even being considered LGBT will get your head cracked open with a baseball bat.  So when you walk hand in hand down the street in your town with your wife or girlfriend just count your lucky stars that a car full of bigots don't jump out yelling "faggot" and, at best just beat you up, or at worst, crack your skull open with a brick or bat. 

I can walk into east Austin and get my head cracked open because I'm white. It's a reality about the world we live in. I understand this so I simply don't go there. Is it fair? Heck no. Is it reality? Heck yes. I also know I can get run over if I stand in the freeway. I simply have enough sense to not do it. But rest assured I won't seek a new law or rule to accommodate me doing any of these things.

You, Sir, have absolutely no concept of what it costs emotionally, physically, or financially to be a member of the LGBT community in this home of the brave and the land of the free.  So don't talk to me about "victim mentality" until you've experienced what members of the LGBT community experience on a daily basis in this nation.  If you want proof, I will be happy to email you a list of Non-LGBT websites that have documented the abuse and discrimination of the LGBT community.

You are correct. I've never been gay and after 30 years or heterosexual marriage, I think it's safe to assume I never will be. But being angry over life's circumstances is hardly a valid reason to enact another law or regulation with the hopes it will make you feel better. Believe me, once your special group gets this issue addressed to your satisfaction, there will be another pressing agenda item that will need to be lobbied for. And who knows, perhaps another special group will find your position offensive. Should their concerns not be just as valid?

After 40+ years working in several civil rights movements, I am not about to turn tale and run from you or anyone else.  My running stopped a very long time ago.

From your statement above, You have no idea what it's like to be black and chased from a voting booth, restaurant, grocery store, or other public establishment, so don't you dare try to equate your perceived wrongs with those actual, documented wrongs that hundreds of thousands of blacks suffered through for many, many years. You do yourself an injustice and ultimately look very petty.

I'm not looking for you to run, just don't use the race card unless you can face the challenges thrown at you because of it.

Guy - While I will no longer be responding to your comments individually, I do hope you will continue to make your comments.  I believe your series of responses to my initial blog has made the case for needing to amend the NAR Code of Ethics to add the term "sexual orientation better than I ever could.  Infact, I believe your series of responses to my initial blog make a very strong case that all agents and brokers should have to take the course At Home With Diversity.

I do want to thank you for the debate Scott. I found it enjoyable and what I believe our country needs more of, especially in these times when unsubstantiated race baiting claims are used purely for the shock value and used far too often. 

Unfortunately, I've never been afraid of being called names by people with a clear, but purely political agenda. And somehow I'm not surprised that you think anyone with a differing opinion needs more education. That is typical of folks who are used to making claims and then run for cover when they're exposed for presenting anything but fact. 

Best of luck my friend. No hard feelings here. And I do hope you get to the point that someone calling you a name will not affect your psyche to a degree that you'll see the only solution as being more rules / laws. I'm blessed that I got past that in my childhood.

Much success Scott!

I have both of you beat! ;)  My take is that we should be able to discriminate against whomever we wish. If I don't like to work with purple people, then that's my business, not NAR or the government's business.

Satar - I will give you the benefit of the doubt and hope that your comment was meant as a humorous respite from previous comments.

Scott, I just saw your post for the first time as I have not visited this group for the past few weeks.  Thank you for your time and effort.  You and I know how important it is to Guy that hispanics are not discriminated against, but he will not come out and say it.  But he surely starts by saying he is hispanic, and is well aware of the fact that he has a lobby group like nahrep (National Association of Hispanic Real Estate Professionals) protecting his interests with NAR.  So it is clear Guy doesnt care about anything that doesnt affect him. Typical self centered individual. I wonder why he even took his valuable time to respond to such an unimportant issue.

You and I know that people do not rob banks because of morality.  They do not rob banks because of the threat of going to prison.  If deterant is used to stop realtors from discriminating against other realtors based on race, color, religion, sex, handicap, familial status, or national origin, then it can surely be used to stop discrimination because of a persons sexual orientation.  

Jeff, how pleasant it is to have another politically correct REALTOR on this site. Unfortunately you are typical of what I find in this profession...someone who can't quite comprehend what they read, or should have read before they began a rant.

Thanks for trying, like so many politically correct neanderthals, to put me in a group so it will make your point. Respectfully, I decline. But I do give you full credit for towing the party line.

So, let me begin by presenting you the facts that you apparently didn't bother to read or simply ignored when you realized it wouldn't fit your political agenda...not that this surprises me. 

1. I never said I was Hispanic. I said my ancestors immigrated from Spain. No one in my family has ever considered himself/herself anything other than an American...not Spanish American or any other "group" that the left-leaner's need to pin on someone. "Grouping" is the sole property of the lefties because a crutch always comes in handy when life throws you a curve ball and you can't figure out how to handle it. My father never even learned or was allowed to learn Spanish because English was the language of this country when he was growing up. Ooooopps...guess you never figured on that one eh Jeff.

2. I have never been a member of NAHREP and in fact declined to become a member when I was approached about it as I don't think they serve any more of a purpose than another other group who feels slighted by life. Unlike you Jeff, I don't need anyone to protect my interests as I'm capable of taking care of myself, thank you very much. I realize this explanation is an exercise in futility because this is not something you're capable of understanding.

3. Thanks for utilizing your mind reading skills to tell others what I think. The problem here is you and I are polar opposites in this world and you will never understand what personal responsibility and personal accountability are like. You need special protections and special considerations to make it in this world, otherwise your failures will become your sole property and we both know that simply won't be allowed.

Sorry that I didn't include any race baiting in this email...just not my style.

Ok, Scott,

Have you thought up a set of good wording to add to the COE, I think that it would be interesting to draw up a selectable set of clauses that could go beyond the REALTOR® COE in this direction and others, this could be worked up by any individual and help to set us apart from the un-special groups!

My people came to America also, but I don't need to say where they came from...hmm?

P.S. I'm over 5.5 and I'm special!

P.P.S. Is it better to be politically correct or politically incorrect? And although I've always held that I am H-sapien, As I understand it Neanderthals never even put each other to the sword, how bad could they have been?

Michael:

"to set us apart from the un-special groups"

Isn't that what this entire stream has been alluding to? You're MORE special than others. Finally, the truth slips out, albeit unintentionally.

As usual, you enitrely missed the point of my statement regarding the immigration of my ancestors. They NEVER needed special status in order to feel good about themselves. I suppose they were just ordinary, hard working individualists who didn't allow name calling to affect their lives to such a degree that they needed laws / rules to give them a crutch to lean on. 

MAINSTREET? Perhaps in your world but certainly not the the real world, and if it was, you cetainly wouldn't need to push for special status.

Jeff-  Thank you for your thoughtful comments and for the NAGLREP support on this issue.

Michael - Congratulations on your Green designation and thank you for your insights on this topic.

Guy- As I said in an earlier response to your comments, you make the case for amending the NAR Code better than I ever could.

As I am currently very busy with clients and have less time for responding to comments regarding my original blog post, I want to thank all for your comments and close this discussion.  Great success to you all and much happiness in your lives.

Guy,

So It's not alright for Jeff to infer that you are Hispanic, but it is ok for you to infer that I said that I was MORE SPECIAL THAN ANYONE?

Unfortunately you are typical of what I find in this profession...someone who can't quite comprehend what they read, or should have read before they began a rant.

BTW, you might look up the word sarcasm. And I never said that I was pushing for "special status". I said I'm SPECIAL.

Scott,

Sorry to be part of the derailing of your post, but sometimes it's just too much fun to poke...